Transcript: Episode 14 - Dr Fiona Spotswood, research, on Project FIAS and gender inequality in mountain biking

Read the episode show notes with Dr Fiona Spotswood

Aoife Glass 0:06

Welcome to the Spindrift Podcast. I'm Aoife, and every episode I'm joined by a different guest from the world of cycling to delve into their stories and share their experiences. So you might hear from anyone from an elite athlete to an industry insider, or from an everyday rider with a great story to share to a community advocate who is making a difference in the world of cycling. Spindrift is all about sharing different perspectives and diverse voices.

This episode, I'm joined by Dr. Fiona Spotswood, an academic from the University of Bristol who is currently researching women's perceptions of mountain biking. And the insights she's discovered so far are fascinating. If you enjoy this episode, I would absolutely love it if you spread the word. So please consider telling a friend colleague or family member about the spindrift podcast, in the meantime, enjoy.

So joining me online now is Fiona Spotswood, or Fi Spotswood. Thank you so much for for coming along. Coming along? Thank you for for joining me for a chat this evening. And you're an academic, a mountain biker, but how would you describe who you are and what you do?

Dr Fiona Spotswood 1:25

Good question. So yeah, I'm an academic. I'm a researcher in marketing and consumption in a business school, but I'm a mum as well. And, and a mountain biker, and have been for a very long time. And I run a children's Mountain Bike Club, and like to do mountain biking, talk about mountain biking, research mountain biking, generally, it's not far from my mind,

Aoife Glass 1:46

Write mountain biking, do mountain biking, have mountain biking adventures!

Dr Fiona Spotswood 1:50

That's it, yeah, all of the above.

Aoife Glass 1:52

So we're going to have a little bit of a talk about first of all, like how you got into mountain biking, what mountain biking means to you and how that's changed. I'd love to talk to you a little bit more about riding with kids as well, and the joys and the trials of doing that. But I also really, really want to talk about your current research, which is - and if I've got the title correctly - it's looking at women's perceptions of mountain biking. What's the official research title?

Dr Fiona Spotswood 2:21

The official research title is, we call it 'Project Fierce: fostering inclusive action sport'. And yeah, we've spent a long time trying to unpick how women who mountain bike feel about mountain biking and whether they feel like they're part of the culture, but also trying to understand how the cultural kind of perceptions of the sport itself are being created by marketing and media. So it's a it's there's lots of different sides to the project.

Aoife Glass 2:46

And you've done research from that from study, you've gone out and spoken to lots of women who work in mountain biking, you've spoken to people in the industry as well to sort of get their the questions that they want to know answers to or want to know information on and sort of just get the lay of the land. And there's more work coming again in the future. So we'll get onto that in a moment. But first of all, I want to sort of backtrack, because you are clearly so passionate about mountain biking. When did it all begin? When did you get the mountain biking bug?

Dr Fiona Spotswood 3:17

Not until my mid to late 20s. I'm a I'm a definite late comer. And I was a sporty, very sporty and loved outdoor sport, particularly running. And I've done a bit of road biking. I was way better at road biking than I was running. But I loved running in the hills. And so I love the idea of mountain biking and like many women, I was introduced to mountain biking by a male friend. And I was rubbish. And I found that incredibly difficult. The first ride I ever did was in the Quantock and he took me down some ridiculous steep descent and I cried and threw my bike at him told him he was a wanker. And I never let him forget it. He's a very good friend to this day. And it was, and it was horrible. But gradually I overcame those those fears and had some skills coaching or skills coaching and just just absolutely fell in love with mountain biking. And I was always aware that it was my true love. So I do lots of other sports as well. I lift weights, and I do road biking, gravel biking, running all sorts of things. But I'm mountain biking is the closest sport to my heart and always will be.

Aoife Glass 4:23

Why is that? What is it about mountain biking that sort of just just connects with you.

Dr Fiona Spotswood 4:27

You know, we think about this all the time, don't we? We write about it, we talk about it. It's for me, it's escape. I love disappearing off into the wilderness. I love the fact that you can travel a very long way on a bike. And that was always something that I had right from the beginning. So my first ever mountain bike event race was a 12 hour race. It didn't occur to me that that was weird. And my second - I'd been riding a bike for three months - and my second ever mountain bike race was the Trans Wales which was seven days and I did seven consecutive years of seven day stage races, because that's what I just absolutely loved. I love the idea that you can jump on your bike and explore the hills, the mountains and just disappear. And that's definitely my main driver. And a very, very close second is the people. And I've met the most fantastic, amazing souls through mountain biking. And it's never a relationship based on bikes. It's a relationship that happens on bikes. It's true, true friendships. And I'm sure the same happens with running. And again, I've got great friends I've that I've met through running and we've we've had similar experiences disappearing off into the hills on two feet in very similar ways. But it's get it gets under your skin in a way that, you know, lifting weights in the gym, we'll just never do.

Aoife Glass 5:42

I mean, I also like lifting weights, I need to do more of that. But there is just something about it. And there's something about doing it under your own steam like you feel like there's so many like motivational moments for life as well. Once you've caught yourself over something that scares you, for example, you're like 'Ah! I can, I can do this, I can. I'm physically mentally and emotionally capable of putting my through myself through something that's a bit scary, and then achieving something at the end of it'. And it's great for that for that, not necessarily instant gratification. You know, I'm not a natural, like throwing myself off stuff. And the first time I did a long distance ride, I haven't done anything quite quite as impressive as up. I rode from London to Lyme Regis over several days, I should add. And I was like,' Oh my God, I've got myself, I've got myself here not on a train not on a car. I've literally moved my own body and this bike this distance'. It's kind of amazing.

Dr Fiona Spotswood 6:35

I love it. Absolutely love it. And the travelling is really special. I totally agree with you about the sense of achievement as well. And actually, pretty much all the women that we interviewed for the the research project, you mentioned, said the same thing. And then they talked about mountain biking as this sort of symbol for life. And it wasn't frivolous. But I'm sure from the outside it feels very frivolous, that we feel so passionate about this sort of slightly childish sport and chucking ourselves around the woods on two wheels. But actually, the women talk to me about 'mountain biking has taught me that I'm capable of way more than I ever thought possible'. And you know, absolutely every single ride I come back from I feel better about being a human. And it's wonderful. And then the travelling is another layer to it. And I aspire to these, you know, doing these super long backpacking trips; it's not easy for me at the moment as I've got three small children. But they weren't available. They weren't around so much when I was doing lots of racing, it was more of a kind of going around in circles doing 24 hour racing. And I kind of always knew that that wasn't really for me, because I did adventure racing, which was multi sport and multi day, and that appealed a lot more, but it's it's less accessible, but the mountain biking, you know, I love the fact that I could just, it's just felt so simple jump on your bike and keep writing, keep pedalling for 24 hours. And that's all you have to do. It's not it's not complicated, really. And now I love I love these bike packing events that are cropping up these rallies. And they just appeal so much as a simple way of hanging out with cool people and seeing how far you can go on your bike.

Aoife Glass 8:03

Yeah, there's loads and loads more of them happening, that there seems to be more and more of them pushing from that grassroots element and from from the women's perspective as well. So you've got these groups springing up like Sisters in the Wild that are, and the Komoot women's rallies as well, which are sort of really encouraging and providing opportunities for more women to try this out. I mean, has the scene changed in that way much? I mean, you were saying that used to do like more 24 hour races, and now it's like no, seven days. That's what I want to do.

Dr Fiona Spotswood 8:32

When I first started mountain biking, it was 24 hour racing and seven day racing. So I did the Trans Wales, and the trans- I didn't do the Trans Scotland, it only happened once because I went to the Canadian Rockies and did the Trans Rockies.

Aoife Glass 8:44

Oh my god, that must have been amazing!

Dr Fiona Spotswood 8:46

It was amazing. It was great. And stage racing is super fun. Because it's just like a party slash holiday on a bike. You know, you ride, you get up, ride your bike, finish, you have, you know, you camp, talk to loads of cool people, and you get up and do it again seven times. And it's just the it's just the best fun ever. And it's different to bike packing and self sufficiency and sleeping in bus stops and all this kind of stuff. And I like a bit of you know, a bit of both, really, but I think that the scene has changed enormously, absolutely for the better. There are so many more events available. And you know, there are many people who are realising that women's relationship with doing these events, putting themselves out there going and trying these things is very, it's very much different to men's. And we need different types of support to make make it a welcoming space. And things like the Komoot women's rallies are just absolutely phenomenal. And I love the fact that they've you know, created these opportunities for women, these spaces for integration, and then they stopped them and said right now you've done this, you go and do the main event. And I think that's really, really important. So it's not about segregation and saying women need women's only things. It's about encouragement, support, fostering a sense of possibility and then integrating women into into mountain biking or whatever it is, you know, gravel biking, more thoroughly, which I think is really special. The scene has changed enormously. I feel like being a woman on a bike, a women cyclist now, is so exciting.

Aoife Glass 10:06

And you were saying women, in your experience or through your research seem to need different things to sort of to be welcomed into that space? What kind of things do you think they need? Or have they said that they need?

Dr Fiona Spotswood 10:19

Yeah, this conversation is quite interesting, because we are seamlessly moving between gravel biking, and bikepacking, and mountain biking. And although you know, that's how I see them, actually, they're very, very different worlds. And mountain biking and gravel biking have got invisible little lines drawn around them with rules written down, or not written down. And they are really different spaces. So I think, you know, gravel biking as a phenomenon, which includes bikepacking, gravel, racing, gravel events; that's a very inclusive, inherently inclusive space that's been created at a point in history, which is very different. And we are much more aware of gender and other, you know, inequalities in sport and cycling, particularly cycling. Whereas mountain biking, that line drawn around mountain biking was drawn a long time ago, in a different space and time. And so we're, you know, everybody is aware that we have work to do, and there is still huge inequality in mountain biking. Some of the things that need to change are really ingrained, and they're really difficult to change. So I think so women coming into gravel, biking bikepacking, they it's a different job to create support and inclusion in gravel biking, and bike packing than it is in mountain biking. So I was I was speaking to the Red Bull Hardline, well, actually, somebody's writing about the Red Bull Hardline. And no women's ever completed the event. This year, they have got a women's only kind of like taster session to get, you know, it's still like the most elite amazing riders in the world. But bringing them together and in supporting them to ride the course and give them the best possible chance they've got to complete the course. So you know, not all of us are going to be ever, ever be able to ride the Red Bull Hardline. But you know, the same thing applies, I think; get women together, and magic happens. And they will feel supported and encouraged and actually progress way quicker than they would if we're, if we're, you know, trying to get women to integrate into a very, very male dominated space.

Aoife Glass 12:22

It's interesting that you mentioned that because there was also Red Bull Formation, which was the women's camp that was put together to give more women the opportunity to get familiar with the terrain that we're more used to seeing guys ride for Red Bull Rampage, which is a crazy event. And it's amazing, like off the back of that not just the riding. I mean, this kind of terrain is like it's insane. in the Utah desert, it's incredible. And the progression just in a few years within that, but also then the the cascade effect out from that, because then you started to see more events, free ride events, for women happening in different countries. So we had in the UK, Evolve, Project Evolve, got set up, and just how that's had a massive impact. And now, I mean, again, I look out for this, because I'm interested in it. But I feel like there's more and more female free riders, women free riders out there, and more opportunities and more coverage for them. So yeah, these ripple effects.

Dr Fiona Spotswood 13:19

It's really important. And our research found that, you know, women are frustrated by the narrow kind of representation of mountain biking in the media, and in, you know, through through brand marketing as well. So on the one hand, you know, it'd be easy to argue that things like Red Bull Rampage or Formation or the Hardline weren't helpful, but actually they are. Because if there's gender parity, or at least women represented in those events, because everyone likes a hero, and it's really important for us, for all sports, I think to kind of look up to these phenomenal riders and go wow, that's amazing. Like, I would never do that I was nowhere in a million years. But isn't that amazing? Isn't that impressive. And we have that for so many other sports, we have it for other aspects of mountain biking. But the truth is that those crazy Red Bull associated events, they're the ones that the kids see on YouTube, and that are shared on Instagram and so on. So I've spent a lot of time doing this research project talking to teenage girls about what they think about mountain biking so these are girls who don't mountain bike but are, kind of, could. They live near trails or they would have access potentially. Some of them had tried it a little bit. And it wouldn't you wouldn't believe the number of them that that understood mountain biking to be Red Bull in some form it you know, because 'my dad watches it' or 'my brother likes it'. And they never see a woman in it. And so it, so it's... so they therefore assume that mountain biking is something that's really open at top level to men only, which is of course problematic. So it's really important to get women into those events and and show, you know, good representation of women, women of colour, all types of people, so that younger generations kind of can look up to these incredible heroes, like they can in other sports, and go, 'Wow, you know, and it's possible, it's open to people like me'. And I think that's, that's so important.

Aoife Glass 15:16

So let's backtrack a little bit, then just because I'm interested now in finding out how this research project kicked off. So you're interested in mountain biking, and you work in a particular area of marketing. Now, I work in the media side of bikes. And so for me, those two things make sense, because there's a lot of like, you know, sort of media, marketing, around the sale of bikes, that's all connected. But how did that connect for you?

Dr Fiona Spotswood 15:40

It's a good question. So my, my official academic field is called social marketing. So my PhD is in social marketing. So my area of research interests has always been inequality and physical activity, not not necessarily sport. So my PhD, looked at social class and physical activity, and trying to understand kind of ingrained cultural differences in social class in the UK, and relationships with physical activity. And I guess, if you could boil down all of my research to one thing, it would be how people form relationships with physical activity, or don't, or struggle. And so I went from looking, you know, being interested in social class to thinking about other types of inequality. So a lot of my research has been about women, but particularly mothers, you know, when I was pregnant with my third baby, I was just I remember just thinking, how am I ever going to get my fitness back, I mean, fitness has been something that's been so important to me throughout my life. And I just thought, you know, I'm already stretched for time with two small children, I cannot physically, I just cannot think about how I can't figure out how I could possibly ever have time to do enough training, to be a good mother, and hold down a job and get my fitness back. And so I got really interested in motherhood and mothering and how, you know, the way that society, you know, the expectations of Mother mother on mother's now, which has changed, which changes, of course. You know, you know, we mothers these days are expected to do everything, be everything, look amazing, snap back into their pre baby jeans, as the phrase goes, you know, straightaway, whilst you know, being beautiful, having perfect hair and having a high flying job, you know, there's a lot of pressure and also being present all the time to care for your child. For years, I did a lot of research about motherhood and physical activity. And I guess it wasn't a massive step then to think about gender more broadly, and inequality, looking at sport, and why not look at, you know, action sport, mountain biking, because that's what I know. And it astonished me actually, that this project kicked off with a bit of an argument with my now research collaborator, Barney Marsh, who writes for various, you know, mountain bike media outlets. Yeah. And as a science writer, as well. And he interviewed me about another project. And we, and we realised we had mountain biking in common and our paths have crossed in the past. And he said, Well, the good thing is, everything's changed now. And it's all completely different. And there's so much more equality than when I was mountain bike racing, which was, you know, over 10 years ago, and I thought has it? Has it really changed that much? So I dug into it. And of course, lots of things have changed lots and lots of things have changed. And I remember racing about Yeah, must have been in my late 20s. I'm now 40s, nearly 44. And someone saying, 'Wow, finding a woman who can ride like you is like finding a hen with teeth!' quote, unquote. I mean, stay with me. Yeah, you're right. Actually, there's hardly any women out there riding these long things. So things have changed, because there are, there's loads of women. And there's loads more opportunities. But we look at the figures, and it's still very stubbornly 80/20. And that is not unusual across other action sports as well. So you know, other outdoor kind of extreme action sport is also pretty much stubbornly 80/20. And you have I have a conversation about my research with anyone from climbing or surfing or skateboarding, and they nod furiously saying, 'Oh, this, you could take out mountain biking from everything you said and put in skateboarding and it would be exactly the same'.

Interesting! Are there any sports the buck that trend? That percentage trend?

Well, sport is not all the same. So you know, you look at cricket. I was taught about cricket because it cricket they've done a fantastic job of repackaging cricket and giving it back to us and saying, Actually, we're not going to we're not going to accept the fact that cricket is a boys sport anymore. We're going to remake it, give it back to you as a sport for everybody, women and men, girls and boys. And we're going to do that very purposefully at a policy level strategic level with a lot of marketing, a lot of media activity. Here you go. And my children have no concept whatsoever that a couple of decades ago, Cricket was seen as a boy sport.

Aoife Glass 20:07

I mean, that's really hopeful. I remember at school like Cricket was what boys played, and girls played rounders.

Dr Fiona Spotswood 20:12

Girls don't play Rounders anymore. They play cricket.

So there is hope, which is brilliant. But obviously, in order to hopefully move forward and find out what needs to happen, we need to know what the situation is and what the issues are. Because I feel like... so I've been in the, I guess, the journalism side of mountain bike and cycling for just over 10 years. And I got into mountain biking and cycling quite late on as well. My late 20s I think it was just through commuting in London, and then you know, q friend took me mountain biking, I was like, 'Well, this is a bit good, isn't it?' And sort of I know that like what I've tried, I've tried to do in other women I know that I've tried to do working on various titles - So I used to work in a title call Total Women's Cycling, which is, sadly, now defunct - we were kind of feeling our way. So we were just going by like what we thought and what we felt. But then my background before that was science communication and public engagement. And it would be incomprehensible that you would start throwing content and resources out there without trying to find out what the lay of the land was, first of all, what people actually wanted. I'm really excited about this research that you're doing. How do you go about doing it? And what have you found? That's a big question I realise!

That... that's the question! So what we've done, start with that one, because that's fairly that's easier. We've, we've probably I think, at last count, I think we've talked to or listened to, in fact, around 75 women and teenage girls in Scotland, England and Wales. Most of those conversations have been interviews, we've done lots of group small group discussions with teenagers. And for about 20 of those interviews, I with mountain bikers, I also went for a ride with the women. And you get to know people very quickly when you ride with them. Because you know, it's fantastic way of breaking the ice and you know, sharing life stories as you're churning your way out the first hill, those women included women who mountain bike, women who cycle but do not mountain bike and teenagers who don't mountain bike and also actually teenagers who are trying mountain biking for the first time. And I've done what I call what we call reflexive thematic analysis. So we analyse the data we got imagine every single conversation been recorded, transcribed, and we've got this huge volume of data, huge array of data that we've analysed and pulled out key themes that really kind of tell us a number of different stories about what's going on. So that's one side of the research has been about understanding how the culture of mountain biking is understood, seen from the outside how it feels when you're a woman in mountain biking, and this or uses woolly phrase, the culture of mountain biking, but essentially, it's a marketplace ideology. It's a sport, it's a lifestyle, it's a recreational activity, it's a consumption, as a consumption scholar, I would call it a, you know, a consumption practice or set of consumption practices. And the marketplace or the marketing side and the media side are really, really influential in creating that world. And shaping that culture in a way that either means people, you know, women feel included, like they belong, that they can get stuck in that they feel like this is my... 'these are my people, this is my world', or creates it in a way that makes them feel like they're not quite part of it, and they need to find their own path. And that's what's happened really, is that the women we've spoken to, they love mountain biking, the ones who are doing it, pretty much all of them were recruited by men, they found their feet in it, they love the sport just as much as you and I for all the same reasons that you and I love it. They absolutely think it's the best thing ever, which it is. But they feel like the marketplace and the consumer culture side just isn't quite ready for them. It's not there for them. It's very, it's still masculine, it's still male dominated, and they don't feel at home. And so what's happened is that they're self organising. So women are coming into mountain biking, riding with other men. This is not about bashing men over the head and saying they're doing a terrible job. Pretty much everybody had lovely stories of wonderful men who supported them through their journey. They just felt like this, this place wasn't where women belonged, essentially. And then you see, you know, women forming groups and collectives and self organising and creating WhatsApp groups and Facebook communities and coming together. And then you get these amazing stories from women who say 'when I discovered the women, then everything changed. There was a different energy. It resonated with me differently. I felt different about riding. I absolutely love it. I'm progressing faster than I ever thought thought possible. I feel comfortable. I feel like this these are my people. And you know all that marketplace stuff, that those kit reviews, those those, you know, articles, those magazine outlets, those websites, that those shops online, they're not for me, they're for the guys', quote unquote, 'no woman ever reads that stuff'. Wow. Which is painful. And as I always say, when I talk, when I present the data, particularly to the industry, I say, I'm not saying this is necessarily fair, because I know how much effort is going in by some people in in the industry on the marketing side, on the media side, to try and do different kinds of marketing, media, different kinds of representation, I know that, I talk to these people. So it's not necessarily fair, but it is what women are saying to me. And I've got absolutely reams of data saying that. And it's not everybody's experience, it's qualitative research. It's not quantitative. It's not, you know, it's not kind of pretending to be generalizable to everybody. But this, you know, there was definite themes patterns across the data. And so it's not a problem for the women who are already in mountain biking because they are, once they're in there finding very welcoming spaces and places to ride people to ride with, you know, nobody had a story of, of loneliness, of not being able to ride with other people. But then you look at the figures, and you think, actually, we're still at this very stubborn 20/80 and intersectional inequality. So you know, most women who mountain bike and white, we still are struggling to to encourage women from underrepresented groups into mountain biking. So, you know, it is important how it feels as a culture. And so there are things we can do. So the project has evolved from just talking to women who ride women, cyclists and teenage girls to engaging with a lot of the industry as well, we've had the most fantastic response from industry, marketers, and media experts, lots of men as well. So not just not just women, women and men, who are very, very interested in this subject they recognise there is work to do, they recognise it as a problem. And they really want to work closely with our, with our research team to understand what's going on. So you know, absolutely hats off to everybody we've engaged with, we've got an amazingly engaged steering group stakeholder group, who had been talking to you from day one. And we are unpicking the industry side. Now, I'm trying to work out how gender inequality continues to be locked in to the way that mountain biking is represented in marketing and media, despite the efforts of some absolutely leading transformative brands who are trying to do really different things. Despite lots and lots of really, really good work, there is still this perception of of mountain biking, there's, there's problematic.

Aoife Glass 27:36

You're sort of talking about like getting the guys on board, and that the you know, the reality is like most.. a lot of the industry is made up still of guys, I'd still say that it's male dominated. So we need... but we need everybody on! But like if, in order for this change to happen, one, we need as many people on board as possible to recognise that this is something that could be changed and should be changed. And here's, here's a way to change it. To have that sort of motivation and impetus. And also so that the work isn't just left up to the women to do all that. Make it change. Because it is something that I have experienced in the past, in my time, writing on titles is like, 'Oh, this is a woman's story. Aoife's the woman. You can write that story'. And it's like, it doesn't have to be me. I mean, I'm happy to, I love talking about it, it's obviously something that I'm passionate about. But then it always becomes this separate thing like, 'Oh, this is a women's cycling story or a women's bike, let's give it to the woman on the team'. Rather than integrating that into maybe the whole sort of strategy of the site or the workload of the people on the site, or magazine or publication.

Dr Fiona Spotswood 28:42

From other people I've spoken to you, that's a fairly common experience I think. I was talking to somebody who had left the industry, the media side, and she said I don't and I was one of the questions I asked was, you know, 'what do you think would create change? What would trigger you know, things to really change and for, you know, the media site to view or treat women's mountain biking in the same way as a truly integrated subject'. And her instinctual reaction was, 'oh, well, it won't, nothing will change until there are women in leadership positions right at the top of the food chain'. And I thought, Isn't that sad? That this is something that has to be triggered by a woman and, and we talked about it a bit further, and she backtracked. So yeah, you know, you're right, because I've spoken to loads of men who are really, really interested in this topic, and you don't need to be a woman to be a feminist. Right? You know, it's just about, you know, understanding equality and organising in a different way. So, but I do think at the moment, there are challenges with trying to create a culture in, particularly the media side, but I've seen it in the marketing side as well, a culture where people who work in these fields for mountain biking and I'm sure it's the same for other sports, where they see their role in greater and grander terms than just the day job. And so you know, as easy for me as an academic I like to step back, that's my job right to step back and see things, you know, more holistically, and I've got the leisure to do this. But you know, media and marketing are part of the way we come to understand the world. And so if your day job is riding bike reviews, or bike testing, you don't necessarily see your job in terms of fostering a culture of inclusion. In mountain biking, your job is riding bike reviews. So I can understand why that feels a bit challenging. But ultimately, that's where we need to go. Because, you know, actually, you know, media titles and brand managers have a huge role to play in how we as a society come to understand who sport is for, and particularly amount of mountain biking, the reach of the organised competitive sport is lesser than it is with other sports, you know, with football, it's all about, you know, the leagues and the teams and the championships. And with mountain biking, it just isn't as a huge divide. Most people will never race a mountain bike on a no interest and no interest in doing so. And that's absolutely fine. So in that way, we have to think about other ways that that culture has been shaped. And I think that's a that's a real challenge, because it's a big expectation to talk to a journalist or or, or a part time freelance kit tester and say, Oh, you got a role to play in fostering equality in action sport, and they think really, I just testing this pair of shoes. So it is tricky, I think.

Aoife Glass 31:28

It feels like there needs to be a bit of a paradigm shift in mountain biking. And I just wish, I just wish things were changing quicker.

Dr Fiona Spotswood 31:37

You know, I think also, it's important to recognise where things are changing. I think I've been really impressed by some of the big brands activities, so the big big mountain bike brands, particularly the brand sort of positioning coming out of the US, they are ahead of the game, and you know, fostering equality and challenging inequality are actually genuinely built into what people are doing. And that's really nice to see, there is a huge disparity and a huge difference in how brands tackle that, but you can understand why big brands got much more flexibility and freedom and much more kind of resilience to the ups and downs of the credit crunch and what's happening kind of in the in the economy, but they you know, it's nice to see them just investing in female ambassadors riding investors, and, you know, I'm having female mountain bike, you know, heroes sponsored by their brand, and they're like, Wow, it's just no big deal. That's just what we do. That's how we roll. It's the smaller brands, I think they have the the challenge. And they they do seem to still follow this very clear line, which is, you know, these guidelines that are that are written into how mountain biking should feel and look. And I've been told that, you know, there are ways that mountain bikes should look in product launches. And you know, there are very few women who are able to make bikes look like that. And you just think, 'wow, that's very limited myopia'. I think about you know, how how a mountain biking and mountain bikes come to matter to people, you know, I've got I've got a mountain bike now that I would have dreamt about having, you know, in my wildest dreams when I was in my 20s. And I always saw these middle aged idiots who you know, who didn't weren't very fit, I have these beautiful bikes, and I'm now the middle aged idiot with this beautiful bike. And I think I definitely don't ride that bike in a way that it's that it should be. But what's what 'should' about it, I love it makes me extremely happy. I go off and have a lot of wonderful adventures on it. And what's wrong with that, that isn't theirs that feels very authentic to me. I don't even need to be doing a 10 foot gap jump!

Aoife Glass 33:40

Oh god, which I will definitely never be doing or if I did it, it wouldn't end well. And it certainly wouldn't end to rubber side down. So.. but yeah, this this seems to come back to as well this kind of... so I know like road cycling has - and I know that they're much mocked - 'the rules'. And it feels like mountain biking, while it doesn't have them officially written down, has - and you talked about that sort of line around the outside of it - certainly feels like to some extent there has been this like 'this is mountain biking, this isn't mountain biking'. Like I mean, I've heard people say like, oh, you know, gravel biking is just mountain biking from like 20 years ago. And it's you know, you don't need you don't need a gravel bike, you need a mountain bike. I've got both. I love both. I ride them in different ways. So they both make me very, very happy in different ways. And that's one of the things that I've loved about how things seem to be changing, particularly with some of these groups then coming through like Sisters in the Wild, New Forest Off Road Club. It's because it's like it just takes all those unwritten kind of rules and assumptions, rolls them up, flings them out the window and goes, 'No, you ride, how you want to ride. You ride whatever bike you want to ride, you ride in whatever kit you want to do. You can go up hills, you can go down hills, you can do jumps if you want to. We're going to cheer you on and support you. Because mountain biking, riding, cycling is whatever you want it to be'.

Dr Fiona Spotswood 34:58

I think... So I think what's really a particularly New Forest Off Road Club, who are particularly interesting because they advertise the fact that they are offering matriarchal riding experiences, which I think is really special because it shows that they are acknowledging, understanding the rules that are inherently patriarchal, actually. And they are saying, as you said, we know we understand the rules of mountain biking, and we are going to take those rules and we're going to repackage them, and we're going to call it something else. It's off road cycling. And we're going to say, this is a matriarchal riding experience that everybody's welcome and matriarchal or feminist organising. It's all about, you know, non hierarchical different types of systems and relationships that are flat, not hierarchical. So there are fewer rules, but you need to, you need to know what the rules are in order to screw them up and chuck them out the window. And I think I'm one of the questions I've asked a lot of the industry people I've interviewed is, 'what about gravel biking', right? Gravel biking has built into it, this ethos of inclusivity. That's absolutely explicit. So you turn up to a gravel ride, and it is explicit that you can turn up in a pair of Levi's, or, you know, full Rapha kit, a skin suit, no one's gonna laugh at you, you know, you everything goes. And that is absolutely part of it. And you know, it to a certain extent, the wilder and wackier the better. Like it's all about the inappropriate bike, and the bike, none of the bikes are perfect, like gravel bikes are never perfect, but they're, you know, jack of all trades, master of none. And that's kind of the perfect thing. And I asked a lot of the industry about this, you know, how do we build in that ethos into mountain biking and, and try and use the tools of marketing, to create this idea that actually anything does go, because you realise that when you in, so you realise when you when you're in mountain biking that actually they're a really nice bunch. And you can actually ride your mountain bike in any way that you want. And you don't have to do 10 foot gap jumps. And you can have a tootle around the woods and a coffee with your friends. And it's and actually all of that is completely lovely. And most mountain bikers are completely lovely. But from the outside, you would imagine that there will be you know, there will be ways of doing it. They were, you know, accepted and aren't accepted and these sort of these tacit rules. And that's because that's what's represented often in, in in that cultural space. And so most people said to me, I was because it's a young sport. So gravel biking is a young sport, and therefore, it's got this freedom, and mountain biking, it's got layers of baggage. And I think that's true. I think that's true. Yeah, you know, this, but I think we have control over that we can do something about it.

Aoife Glass 37:41

Obviously, if you compare mountain biking to something like road cycling... so mountain biking, I guess kind of like 80s 90s, kind of, well, maybe a bit earlier ish, depending on which side of the Atlantic you're judging it from. Whereas road cycling has hundreds of years of background to it. So mountain biking, isn't... is young, but it's not that young. So it's not as young as gravel biking. But do you think that sort of a lot of the people in it feel like it's, you know, has it taken some of its like, 'Yeah, we're, young, punk and outside the system', but taken that through, but that's also become something quite rigid within it as well. So that's like, you know, 'You can't tell us what to do. Because we're outside the system!' You can't see me, I'm gesturing like, 'I'm outside the system'. I don't know what that mime looks like. But anyway!

Dr Fiona Spotswood 38:28

Yeah, there's definitely... so mountain biking has got a very strong personality. It's the awkward person in the party who's got a really loud voice, who really knows their own mind, he's probably had a little bit too much to drink, right.

Aoife Glass 38:44

And is wearing a plaid shirt,

Dr Fiona Spotswood 38:46

Definitely wearing a plaid shirt and knows, knows their own mind and doesn't like to be told what to do. So some, you know, one of our really important collaborators on the project is British Cycling, whatever you might think about, but they're, they're very open to understanding how they can evolve, and how they can learn from this research, and bring women's voice and authentic stories of mountain biking into ways of organising and supporting women to mountain bike. So that's the next stage of the project. And they, you know, we and we talked about British Cycling about it all the time. And they say, 'the trouble is mountain bikers don't like British Cycling, because they don't like being organised'. And so we have to tread very lightly. So mountain biking, absolutely has been fostered around this idea of of you know, being slightly outside the system not wanting to be told what to do it has been is constructed around not being road biking, essentially. We has got also got a very strong personality. And so so it might not be very old, but it's very ingrained. And it's it's got a very rigid core. And it's you know, it's interesting, it I feel like the marketplace and that those marketplace cultures and representation from marketing and media just isn't quite catching up. It's not running at the same pace as the doing of mountain biking itself. So there are a lot of women coming in Mountain biking, thoroughly enjoying themselves, self organising, going off to women's only mountain bike festivals, women's only events, going and doing rallies, going joining groups or setting up their own groups if they're not there, they're all over Instagram, you know, and the marketplace is not going out and meeting those people head on. And is not responding quick enough to those those people. And it's you know, it's bad business, you know, good. Yeah. So good, you know, brands that are really transformative and really embracing the way women want to ride and women want to engage in mountain biking, they are opening their doors and going 'tell us! Teach us! We want to learn, we want to listen, what shall we do', and they are absolutely striving to recruit women to work with them. So that they can they can tell authentic stories, and build relationships with women. Because ultimately, building relationships is the best way of fostering brand loyalty and therefore selling stuff. And you know, that might that that's definitely one of their motivations, and it's good business, fair play.

Aoife Glass 40:59

So going back then to to the research and your conversations with women, what are the things that they were saying that they wanted? What you know, what did they see that they liked? What did they not see that they wanted to see? What did they see that they absolutely hated? Like?

Dr Fiona Spotswood 41:14

It's a long and complicated story. But there's something simple, you know, starting with a simple 'It's about simple representation'. Women want to see women, you know, pretty much everybody I talked to, I said, so you know, which magazines do you read? Or what websites do you look at? And they sort of laughed, and by the end of the interviews with mountain bikers, I actually sort of slightly felt foolish, even asking the questions. It was in my interview guide, so I asked everybody the same question. And I got that question, and I sort of slightly hung my head and mumbled it thinking I know what the answer is gonna be. And they just went, 'no one reads those magazines'. And everybody has a story about 'Oh, yeah. So every morning, my boyfriend, husband, will reach for their phone, and they will look at Pinkbike. And they'll look at MBR. And they'll look at, you know, whatever list lists of, you know, mountain bike news outlets, and then occasionally, they'd be like, oh, you should read this. This is interesting. And it would be, but I would never reach for it myself. That's not a place that I feel comfortable'. And they all said, you know, you know, 'I used to flick through the magazines and see if there was a woman, there might have been a woman, but they probably on the back page', you know, and I and I always feel like slightly sad about that. Because I you know, I know that that's moved on. I know that that's changed. I know that there's many more women in the magazines that are in ads, you know, featured in articles, writing articles, I know that, but it just takes... there's a lag in how, in those perceptions. So there's a lot, there's something about representation. There's something about diversity of representation as well. I interviewed older women who just went, you know, 'there was never anyone my age, in magazines, it's just never there'. Even the young younger women don't feel represented, non white women... I mean I interviewed some women of colour, they just said, 'you know, you're absolutely no way that anyone who looks remotely like me is ever going to be in there'. So there's something very simple about that. But actually, it was a bit it was a bit more complicated in the sense that it was about diversity of representation of ways of riding. And so my fantastic collaborator, Martin, who was a roadie, he's a road cyclist, and he's a historian of road cycling. And so there's nothing he doesn't know about the history of road cycling, particularly the French, you know, coming out of France. He and I talk a lot about storytelling, and how really marketing and media is all about storytelling, and how stories are so important for creating these understandings about a world for society. And how if you tell a very narrow story, that's what people buy into. And the narrow story that's being told about mountain biking is that it's only ridden in a high octane, rowdy, masculine, competitive, aggressive way. And women see that, men see that. I mean, men I, men I talk to you say, 'Yeah, I don't ride like that. And I can't connect with that'. But it doesn't matter. Because it's a male dominated sport. Women see that and go, 'I don't belong. I've got impostor syndrome, I've got self image incongruency, I can't see myself as a mountain biker'. They apologise when you say, 'Are you a mountain biker?' And they say, 'well, well, not really', even though I've just been for a mountain bike ride with them, and, and so on. So it creates a problem, it creates a barrier. And what we want is for women to be to be, you know, recruited into mountain biking, find their feet, find their people be able to ride, feel like it's totally open, that it's full of po.., you know, the world is full of possibilities, they can do whatever they like, in whatever, in whatever way they want, and feel accepted. And like that fine. That is genuinely fine. And that can be reinforced through media, not challenged by media representation. So that was the main thing, I think, was this narrow representation of how mountain biking is done.

Aoife Glass 44:52

What's the solution there I mean? I know that that's basically the next stage of the project. Because this is like it's not this is no are small. I mean, I can imagine that as soon as you start digging, there's just so much more that comes out, you should open up caverns of information.

Dr Fiona Spotswood 45:08

Yes. So I'd say, I'd say there are kind of three main areas. One is women working in the mountain bike marketing and media landscape. One of our close collaborators is the Bicycle Association and the fabulous Sally Middlemiss, who's obviously written this amazing report about gender inequality in the cycling industry, generally.

Aoife Glass 45:33

And I'll pop a link up to that in the show notes as well. So if anyone wants to have a look at that.

Dr Fiona Spotswood 45:36

Really beautifully presented report, and there are challenges, you know, there are lots of women working in the mountain bike industry, but but still relatively few in comparison to men and not that many in leadership positions. So I think that the more I talk to people working in, in marketing and media in mountain biking, that's a problem, they, you know, the diversity of voices, always positive for business, always, loads of research about this. And so I think that's probably problematic. And if you have a woman in your team of 20, it there is a, there will be a tendency to, you know, as you as your experience, asked women to go and review the woman's kit, or the cover the women's event, rather than really integrate mountain biking generally, and you know remove gender from, you know, the way that it's written about. So that's one thing that I think is really important. Another thing is to create more opportunities for women to ride together and support those opportunities. So our research, one of the stories I mentioned, the beginning of these stories come out of the research, and one of the stories is about women riding together. And how that is, that creates something really magical. Women love it, it gives them strength, it gives them empowerment, it enables them to recruit other women. So if you see a group of women riding on the trails, or you see a group of women on Facebook, who brings together and you go, 'Oh, that's my local woods', it makes it feel possible, even if you're not quite there yet, and you're still doing triathlon, or you're, you know, doing spin classes, and you think, actually, you know, I might give that a go at some point, because I know it's there. And I know they're there. And they ride regularly. And I can just turn up at any point. And so where this has happened in the country, there are kind of enclaves of opportunity. And some of the women I interviewed drove from, you know, one, they lived in a place that had brilliant mountain bike trails, and they drive for an hour and a half to somewhere with a women's group. And I'd say why don't you ride where you live? Yeah. And they sort of looked to me baffled, and when I will, because, you know, because of the group. So I know, I can ride with other women in this group. So we need more places like that everywhere, that the trail network, there should be a very highly visible women's group of mountain bikers that are fully supported. So we also came across a lot of opportunities, you know, a lot of experiences where women told us that these groups were fragile, there was a bit of a group and it had fallen apart, or one person led it and they, you know, had a baby or broke their ankle or something, and it fell apart. So that's why we're working with British Cycling to try and develop a kind of strategy for supporting more women's self organised groups that are highly visible and have built into what they do a way of recruiting women from underrepresented groups, then, you know, sustainably, so you know, supporting people through training in ways that is possible for them, and so on. And then the third thing is working with people in the current systems in marketing media to foster a bit more reflexivity about gender in daily processes.

Aoife Glass 48:44

Yeah, what does that mean, when you when you say more reflexive?

Dr Fiona Spotswood 48:48

We don't know yet. But we are hoping to develop some kind of toolkit to help brands, particularly smaller brands, go through a certain set of steps to intervene at different points in the process to think about how they could change things in small ways that kind of enable them to do something a bit more transformative with their marketing, their brand positioning. And so you know, that would be something that would help media and marketing and just in to inject a bit of, you know, gender transformative action into what people are doing, we would do that totally co-create that with the industry. So we are not the experts, they are the experts, right? So we don't want a bunch of academics coming in and telling people how to do their jobs, but we would create something with them. And this is this is an idea that actually came from our steering group of industry experts. So we're hoping to work on this in the next stage as well if we get the funding.

Aoife Glass 49:50

I mean, I really hope you get it because I think I mean, obviously i i I love mountain biking you love mountain biking and I'm really glad that the women who've discovered it It stuck with it, they've always been keen to share it like because you get passionate about it and you want me that's why. And what makes me I guess a bit sad at the moment with that 8020. And sort of some of the outcome of the research that you've said is that this sport that we know when you're in it is wonderful and welcoming for the most part, and that it looks like you can't come in from the outside is so sad. It's so sad.

Dr Fiona Spotswood 50:26

It's really, really sad. And it's it for me, it's beyond that, because that likely assumes that there's people clamouring, women clamouring to get into mountain biking, who can't. What makes me even more sad is that it becomes embedded, ingrained, in society. And that takes... that's much harder to fix. So you know, so I, you mentioned earlier on, I run a kid's Mountain Bike Club, and we are actually getting there with gender equality, which has been amazing. This.. the last, probably the last six months, we've really seen a change. But for the first you know, four years of the club, I would open the club email account, and there'd be an email from probably a dad, sometimes a mum, but often a dad saying 'My son loves mountain biking. Can they join the Club?' Like, yeah, of course, definitely, you know, bring them along next time, and then the boy turns up and rides and then there's a little girl waving from the side. And I say, 'Oh, is that your sister?' 'Yeah'. And, you know, 'are they gonna join and they're gonna they, you know, do they want to join the club and come out biking?' 'Oh, they didn't really like it'. And this happens so often. So obviously, some people are just not gonna like mountain biking, I'm not suggesting... I mean, they are mad because it is the finest, world's most wonderful sport in the world. But, you know, they, people have a right to not like it. That's not really the point. The point is that these gendered societal ideals become embedded in and absolutely ingrained, and then it goes beyond taste, it goes beyond choice. And it becomes embedded in your kind of worldview. So mountain biking is, you know, one thing but my PhD was all about this. And physical activity becomes something that you just don't do. In some walks of life. It's just the weirdest thing in the world, and you have this, you know, disposition towards it. And you can't, it's not about a matter of wanting to do it or not wanting to do it, or having the opportunities and not having the opportunity. It's just ingrained that it's just the weirdest thing in the world. And so that worries me more is that we need to fight against gender inequality in sport so that women and girls have possibility and opportunity whether or not they do it, that's up to them. It's about fostering gender free norms of Sport and Sport is not has not been a place that girls and women feel a belong, they belong in lots of other sports. And, you know, we are taking this at a policy level in hand, and I think actions sport is ... hmmm... we've got extra work to do!

Aoife Glass 52:47

Interesting. Why do you think that is? Is it just because of the nature of the sport? The way that you don't have, I mean, like you said, cricket and football are in a specific location with a specific governing body that ever, you know, a specific set of rules, or specific marketing budget, a specific event, you know, competitive series, whereas snowboarding or mountain biking or climbing, you're kind of like lots of different things. Lots of people, lots different people in lots of different places.

Dr Fiona Spotswood 53:14

Yeah, absolutely. I think that that's got a lot to do with it. The less governed a sport is the more run away it is. It's got its own rules, and it's much more organic. And if you think about netball, hockey, cricket football, they're done in school. So the government says these are the sports that that kids will do. And kids build a relationship with that sport from day one. They understand it's a normal thing to do. It's a normal part of life. So you can see school has a huge part to play in kids relationship with sport. And obviously things have changed a lot you know, when I was a kid boys played cricket, girls did not, we didn't have a gym and now most of the teenagers I've interviewed as part of this project go to the gym, they take themselves off they they've been keeping fit and staying fit and healthy is part of who they are. Mountain biking does not get done as part of school and nor does surfing. And wouldn't that be cool? Nor does snowboarding really. And so your family and your friends are your most important influence. So gender, particularly, gets locked in because who is it that introduces you to a sport like that? Your dad or your brother. And so you don't... so female role models are really important. Getting mums mountain biking is so important. So one of the things we've done with a club, Bristol Shredders in Bristol, the kids club, is we have two to three rides a month one is for new parents we call it a SPOKE Ride: Send Parents Off, Kids Exclusive. Thank you very much. And they're great and kids ride in the three different experience levels. They ride together and they get a lot out of they learned a lot riding together. But we also have Hub Rides, and the Hub Rides are family rides, and they are rammed every single month and a lot of those... a lot of the reason that those rides are so popular is because of the parents. So it's sometimes the dads don't really know where the trails are, or haven't ridden, or don't really know how to get their kids excited about mountain biking, and often the mum hasn't ridden a bike for a decade, and has got a shopping bike. And we have we were very lucky to get British Cycling grants. So we have bikes available now, mountain bikes available, so we can kit people out. And they say, they say, 'I'm not sure I can ride with my three year old' and I'm like, 'trust me, you can we do four kilometres very slowly with a lot of Haribo stops, you'll be fine'. And they love it. And they're like, 'Wow, I didn't realise that it was this much fun'. I'm like, 'yes, I've been telling you, this is the greatest sport ever!' And so we actually, so it's about and so those kids coming through the club, it's not about them learning to do massive drop offs, or, you know, progress to, you know, racing, they can if they want, it's about actually fostering role models, and particularly their mums as role models. And we have so many girls now who ride with the club is amazing. You should come.

Aoife Glass 55:59

Oh, I'd love to I'm a bit far away now. But if I will be down in Bristol, and I would definitely love to come for a ride, because that sounds like a lot of a lot of fun. What advice would you give then to families wanting to go out riding if they've maybe not done it for a while or you know, the kids are into it, but the grown ups haven't done it for a while or vice versa?

Dr Fiona Spotswood 56:20

Rent a bike. So you know, it does, it does make such difference. I set the club up with Ollie cane pedal progression, which is bike rental, at Ashton Court, mountain bike rental, and also skills coaching

Aoife Glass 56:32

In Bristol, we should point out as well, for anyone who's listening elsewhere in the country.

Dr Fiona Spotswood 56:36

And you know, he has a fleet of, you know, really good, you know, not top of the range, but just solid, good qua... good quality Whyte mountain bikes, and it just makes all the difference. So we often have parents come along on kind of shopping bike, and you can just about do the trails on a kind of hybrid, but it's pretty unpleasant. And then they we say, well, why don't you try this hardtail. And they just come back with massive grin on their faces. So I think a lot of it is that and there are, you know, at the Forest of Dean, they have the same setup, you can rent a bike, it does make a huge difference. Just having a comfortable bike that's not going to kill your bum and your back and your hands and everything. So just making sure it's fun. You know, there are lots of resources out there to help you plan a route that's appropriate. And it always amazes me parents come to Ashton Court and go, 'I took my four year old round the whole trail' and I'm thinking, 'Oh, lordy, that's, that's quite intense!' You know. So we just do a tiny little bit of it that avoids the climbs and you know, then we know where the bumpy bits are. So we avoid those. Just keeping it fun. Rather than you know, it doesn't have to be a sufferfest.

Aoife Glass 57:42

Also plenty of Haribo stops, as you mentioned.

Dr Fiona Spotswood 57:44

Plenty of Haribo stops! And cakes at the end generally does the trick.

Aoife Glass 57:49

I mean, I feel like that's a recipe for just good mountain biking experiences, generally.

Dr Fiona Spotswood 58:14

Just life!

Aoife Glass 57:53

Life! I love it. See, I knew mountain biking could tell me what I needed from life; Haribo and cake stops. For me, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. I mean, we could talk about this forever. And I would love to talk to you a bit further down the line when maybe sort of done some more research. Or if we do a session that's maybe a bit more focused around some of the topics, it'd be great to have you on board for that. And what's next for you had the rest of this year both in terms of research or in terms of your own personal adventures, because you've just got back from like cycling across Wales, as you do.

Dr Fiona Spotswood 58:29

As you do. Yeah, just did the WalesDuro, which was super fun. And for some fairly unknown reason, we decided to do it non-stop rather than camp. You know, I got off the train in Bangor on Saturday morning and Sunday morning arrived in Cardiff and jumped on the train, came back to Bristol. It's phenomenal what your bike is capable of doing. So next for me is Ardrock next weekend, which is great fun, and actually is relevant, because I had been offered a place in Ardrock and had no plans to do it. But I was interested in seeing what it was like. And so I looked at the website, and I was surprised at the lack of women in any photographs on the website. So I you know, being me and you know, sort of academic activist, I emailed a polite email and said, you know, you might want to think about about this and had a very immediate and supportive response back straightaway saying, you know, thank you for your comment, we really appreciate it, which is often you normally the response I get. 'Yeah, thank you. You know, this is definitely something we need to think about. And would you like to come and race Ardrock' at which point my stomach dropped and I thought, 'Oh, lordy, where are my pads? And do I have a full face helmet?' Oh, I haven't. It's... it's bit out of my comfort zone. So So I thought, you know what, I'll go and have an experience up at Ardrock and try something a bit different. So and then the rest of the year is finishing off some of the interviews with industry experts in mountain biking and starting writing for academic audiences as well as continuing, you know, our engagement work and trying to you know, share our findings with as many people as possible running workshops with brands, industry, groups, and so on. And also we're starting at the next stage of the project with British Cycling and developing a strategy supporting women to come together and create women's matriarchal experiences manbites women's mountain bike groups, which is going to be fantastic, I'm really looking forward to that

Aoife Glass 1:00:22

Busy year! And I look forward to following everything that you're up to. I'll put all the links to the various pieces of research that you've been conducting and that you've mentioned in the show notes if anybody wants to follow up with that. So thank you so much for joining us for chat today. Thank you for the research that you're doing. And we can't wait to to find out, find out more and see what changes can be made.

Dr Fiona Spotswood 1:00:45

Thank you. It's been great to talk to you. Thanks so much.

Aoife Glass 1:00:49

Thanks for listening to the Spindrift Podcast and I hope you enjoyed my chat with Dr. Fiona Spotswood. As usual, I'll pop up the links to the research he mentioned in the show notes on the Spindrift Podcast website. If you enjoyed the episode, I would absolutely love it if you'd consider leaving a rating or a comment. They really help us reach more people and I appreciate and read every single one. Until next time, happy riding.